Interviewing the American Dream; The Thirty Something V.P.

This interview is with a mid-thirties HR, Vice President.  At the time of the interview, she lived in Oakland California.  The interview was done at The Public Market in Emeryville California in the summer of 2010.  As we know the economic situation has changed little since that summer.       

What does The American Dream mean to you?

Well for me the American Dream, you know growing up I’ve always heard of you know the house, with the 2.5 kids and the white picket fence. And of course, but in order to get that you always need an education make sure you go through the process of graduating high school, going to college, getting a degree, being the good person, living and being the model citizen to get to a really good and stable job. All of that would get you to the American Dream which was the house, the kids, being married. That was always the concept that I learned growing up. And even for my parents who don’t speak English and they never actually took the time to learn the language, somehow that particular concept was drilled into them as they were raising me. So that’s the only thing that I know of growing up, that’s the American Dream to me.

It’s not about being filthy rich, it’s not about trying to make the millions, but it’s more about having a stable median income life. That’s the American Dream that I know of. 

So that’s what you more or less grew up with?

Yes. 

Your parents are immigrants

Yes. 

When they came to this country what do you think might have been their original American Dream?

Their dream was to make sure that we had a better life. 

They came from?

Vietnam. In ’75. I don’t know much of my parent’s history and what they went through because they don’t talk about it. But whatever it was that they went through and in particular my dad, he was in the army during the Vietnam War. Going into ’75 my understanding from him was that he actually stole a boat and got us on it just to get us out. He was also in prison for awhile. So whatever it is that he went through in Vietnam, whatever it is America has got to be better. So whatever concept that they had in their mind it was more about our safety, our being able to grow up and just be able to offer us a life. He went through a lot of hardship. I heard references of torture, so that being in America was 100 times better than being in Vietnam. So that was the only thing that they hoped for, giving us the opportunity to live. 

You talked about the notion of a house, kids and being married. Where did that come from? What inspired that?

I’d have to say probably the group that I hung out with in school. A lot of what I learned and a lot of the behavior, a lot of my mannerisms, a lot of my etiquette, it’s actually in a school environment and in particular I feel, the friends that I had. They had the same notion about the American Dream. And so being around this group literally from junior high to high school to college we all reinforced the idea of however the idea came to us about the American Dream, (whether it was) from school from other people. But within our group we reinforced it upon one and other about getting your degree, getting married, having a career. So, so for me it’s really about, for lack of a better term, peer pressure. It’s the group that I hung out with that reinforced the idea. You know we did it year after year. We talked about getting married, having children, having that career. And it just so happens that I’m going to a reunion in August and still people are talking about homes and kids and, when are you going to have a kid and so, I don’t know where it came from, probably just the people I hung out with.

I’d say (our group) was median to high median income. (I grew up) in Southern California in Orange County. Suburbs. 

Does media or pop culture drive the concept of The American Dream that you just described?

Absolutely. Because to the best of my recollection we would sit around and we would talk about the stars back then, you know, Tom Cruise, Val Kilmer, the kind of life that they had. They had shows like Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous and we’d all sit around and watch it. So media and pop culture definitely, I strongly feel played a part in what I grew up seeing what you could accomplish. The group I hung out with; we were very into magazines of all the stars, we watched the same shows. During the summer we were watching soap operas and the college campuses had televisions and so in between classes you could watch television. Even those shows influenced our way of thought. While we know it’s a show, there’s a certain concept that was in the shows. We were all like, “Oh it would be really great to work hard and become a psychiatrist and then to have that house and the kids. We were heavily into watching television.

I’m 35. I’m an HR director, actually VP. Not that I work for a company that I hate. I am married to a woman. I’ve been with her for eleven years, been married for two.

In terms of the American Dream that I had growing up, its vastly different from what I imagined my life to be. Growing up I thought somewhere along the line I’d want children and I think because I bought into the American Dream of having kids.  But as I got older and started developing an opinion and a mind of my own, I’m okay with not having children. I don’t have what society would call the traditional married life. So in many ways a lot of the concepts that I believed growing up, it’s not the life I’m living now. It’s not that it’s bad, it’s just completely different. My 2.5 kids are my two Rots and my cat. I don’t own a home. You know everything else is the same, you still work, you still strive for stability. And of course my concept has changed too in terms of doing the 1-2-3 and getting the house and stuff like that. Now as I’m getting older I realize, that what’s important is being happy, having a roof over your head, having food on the table and having the friends that are near and dear to you around you. So I think that a lot of things that were superficial growing up have changed into what I just stated, for me anyway. Because along the way the house was more representative of status. Being married and the kids I think now is just representative of just status or what society believes is the right thing to do. And so I’m more accepting of that not necessarily being the right American Dream. At least for me. The little bit more would be just to make sure, while we’re not striving to be filthy rich we’re striving to have a decent savings account for rainy days because you never know what the economy is going to be like. We’re not after rich, we’re just after being secure. 

The American Dream that you talked about growing up with occurred around the late 80’s . In general has the concept changed?

You know, in general probably not. I think specifically yes but in general  people still strive for the same things. Because for me I think it’s a process of life which I think is very general to say. But people are going in one direction. And I don’t think life should be linear, but I think the majority of people go in one direction you know, whatever that process is. So in general no the concept hasn’t changed. Which is interesting that you asked that question because I had an opportunity to talk to a college friend of mine, the one who I’m seeing in about three or four weeks. She, in her mind, feels that she got the American Dream. Because she got married, they, she and her husband, own a home. She’s a dentist and she has three kids. You know for her, she did all the right things to achieve her American Dream and for her any deviation from that is wrong. And wrong not necessarily that there’s a right or wrong but for her it is wrong not to achieve that. And I recall asking her, the life that she has, is that something that she’s always wanted or is that something that her parents drilled into her. And she said in part, being a dentist is all she knew to strive for because her parents wanted her to be a dentist. Getting married and being in a happy relationship, that’s all she knew because her parents represented that for her. Having kids, she said she has family and cousins so that’s all she knew was to get married and have kids. So it just goes back to what reinforces any concept is the people around you. But hers is more specific, but I think in general everybody moves in that direction. You strive to have money, you strive to have a good job that you like. While my wanting to be rich has turned into wanting to be secure.  My wanting to have a home has turned into not necessarily a house but whomever I’m with, whatever it is I do, that becomes my home. So a lot of the generalizations have become specific for me. While they’re the same, they’re a little bit different. My home isn’t a house, my home is where, that old cliché, my heart is. Being filthy rich is more about security and being able to provide for your family. The kids, I think that’s a choice that everybody makes on their own. 

Early on, in high school, college, was there a pressure to achieve?

Oh yeah. I can only speak for the group that I was in but we were all honor students. In high school we took AP classes, which stands for advanced placement. So within that group there was pressure to achieve all of the American Dream. You know get the good grades, find the right person, get married, have kids. So, the peer pressure, the competition actually spurred a lot of us to continue to strive towards that goal. At least for me I remember thinking after high school if I don’t go to college and get my degree I’m not going to make that American Dream because getting a college degree will get me that job and if I don’t get that job and continue to climb the corporate ladder, I’m not going be important or I’m not going to have that status. So in many ways it was also about, well it was about achievement and goals, accomplishments, it was also about, I guess status. What kind of car do you drive? Are you covered in gold and diamonds? Because that was status.

Is there still pressure?

No. I don’t really care what other people think. I value my friend’s opinion but the pressure I don’t feel so much anymore because I’m more comfortable in my life. I don’t feel I have to prove myself. And I’m at a point where my friends accept me or they don’t. So, that’s where there’s no pressure. 

Has our recession affected your life or your concept of the American Dream?

Yes and no. No in the sense that my economic situation hasn’t changed. Yes in the sense that as a household it has because my partner went to school to get her 3D animation degree and when the economy was booming she had every hope of starting her career as a 3D animator in the entertainment industry or gaming industry. But since the economy tanked all these companies that are trying to survive aren’t really hiring graduates or entry level people. Now they’re looking for people with a number of years of experience just to get the production going. So that has affected us somewhat in the sense that her dream has been put on hold. After she finished school her loans became due, and so she had to do something to help pay for those loans and so she ended up getting a part time job at a company that she is just miserable at. But you do what you gotta do at this point is her mindset. So in some ways it has affected us because one of our dreams is not being accomplished or is not being achieved. Because there are restrictions based on the economy, based on the number of jobs available. She’s tried for a good while and we had to make a choice between do you continue to pursue the dream or do you become realistic and start paying your bills. And we had to start being realistic and pay our bills.

In general terms I think the filthy rich are just greedy. Whether they’re politicians or business people, their decisions, their greediness, I feel drives certain outcomes. And they’re all selfish, you know. There’s selfishness behind that because we always want more. As Americans we always want more. Bigger is always better. And in some sense I feel America as a whole is very self centered. We want more, we want bigger and we’re very greedy and we’re not selfless. So I think those concepts or for lack of a better word, those traits in America probably led us to where we are today. I believe that greed and the desire to want more doesn’t always equate to making the right decisions. 

When I was discussing the American Dream with a colleague, his question to me was, “Isn’t that what got us into this mess?” Do you think that the drive for securing the American Dream got us to where we are now?

You know that’s interesting. I’m going to say yes. Because I’ll draw from my brother’s experience. He believes in this American Dream. He got married, he has two kids. He bought two homes. The second one was just idiocy, but the first one that he bought was because he wanted to provide for the children. He was at a point where (he thought), I should buy a home because I got married and I have these two kids and these kids need a house, a backyard, a front yard. But he was not in a position, nor did he have the money to buy and not get into a situation where he was paying interest only. And so he’s one of the people who went and bought homes that ended up needing to do a short sale just to get out of being upside down. So actually yes, now that I’m thinking about it, I think that a lot of people had these ideas about what they must do for their family, for status amongst their friends. Because at the point when he bought the home he was the only one in his wife’s side of the family who didn’t have a home yet. So I think when he bought a home he felt somewhat complete. But at the same time, he was never happy because the home was out in Vallejo. He and his wife worked in San Francisco. They had to be up at 5:00 in the morning just to get the kids ready to drop them at daycare over in Oakland. And then they’d have to hop on BART to go to San Francisco. All this for the American Dream of having a home. When the economy tanked they had to do a short sale on both their homes. While that was stressful, they’re renting now; in some ways I think he’s happier now than when he was pursuing the American Dream because that responsibility of achieving that American Dream; he’s lived it, he’s felt it, he knows what it’s like. For him it’s back to as long as he has a roof over his head, food on the table, family and friends around him everything else just doesn’t matter. But I think for people like him, for people like me it depends on what your thought process was and what your experiences were that brings you back to the point of what is secure for us now. So it’s about experiences. All that you go through and definitely, to circle back you your question, oh yeah, people striving to get all this stuff? Sure, they’re living beyond they’re means. I know a lot of people who are living on credit cards. While they have a job, it’s not paying enough or whatever the reason is they’re living beyond they’re means. They have this car that they probably can’t afford but they have it anyway just to keep up with the Joneses. And so all this debt that people incur just to keep up, yeah I believe the American Dream in part, tanked our economy. (Laughs). In some part. I can’t say the rich didn’t play a big part..and the politicians.

She reads James Truslow Adams' description of the American Dream. "That dream of a land in which life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement. It is a difficult dream for the European upper classes to interpret adequately, and too many of us ourselves have grown weary and mistrustful of it. It is not a dream of motor cars and high wages merely, but a dream of social order in which each man and each woman shall be able to attain to the fullest stature of which they are innately capable, and be recognized by others for what they are, regardless of the fortuitous circumstances of birth or position."

You know it’s interesting, now that I’m reading this (James Truslow Adams description of the American Dream), that what I believed the American Dream would be growing up was about what it says that it really isn’t. It’s not about cars or the high wages. I don’t know if it’s because over time if people read it or loosely expand the definition to fit they’re own because of societal pressures. Based on this American Dream, each man or woman living to their own capabilities, I’d say in some ways…I’m kind of there? So if it’s not about the cars it’s not about the wages but it’s about my own stature, where I am, and my own happiness in some ways I’d say that American Dream; I’m kind of living it. So I’d never read this, obviously (laughs). In some ways, I find that a really powerful paragraph. And in other ways, I’m like, wow, because I actually had this one idea of what the American Dream is, which if I were to have one word to describe it, it was always about money. And money equates to status. This is more of, each person’s personal ability or capabilities to achieve the best that they can in whatever situation that they’re in. So, I’m glad I read it actually (laughs). 

So I’ve lived my life where I went from wanting the house, being married, having kids. Being married to a man, now I’m married to a woman; wanting to have kids to not wanting to have kids; having been at a point where I did make a lot of money to the point where I’m making a living just to be secure. So I’ve gone through this whole cycle of ups and downs. And the only thing that’s remained constant for me as I’ve learned to be more comfortable with who I am and being older and hopefully a little bit wiser is that it really is just about being secure; doing the best that you can in any situation that you’re in; giving the best that you can and putting the best foot forward. And that whole original concept of the American Dream of the house and the kids and the white picket fence; it’s just not real, it’s just not reality. And I think that concept puts so much of a burden on America as a whole that I don’t think that it gives people the opportunity to grow, to learn about themselves or what they want because they’re constantly chasing this dream that doesn’t fit everyone.

Adams talks about a social order in which each man and each woman shall be able to attain to the fullest stature in which they are innately capable. Is there such a social order? Is that part of the statement relevant?

We don’t have a social order. Is it relevant? It should be relevant. But it’s not true because we don’t have that social order. I believe that we have a system that actually breeds laziness. So I don’t think that each individual in America is actually living to their fullest potential; what they’re capability is. Because there is always going to be some reason or external factors that will be thrown in there and people think they’ve been thrown a curve ball in life. And so there are a bunch of people I think who are trying to find the easy way out. Those people aren’t living to their fullest potential. So, no, there is no social order. I think it should be relevant because I think people should strive for that. Be responsible for yourself, be responsible for the people around you, be responsible for society. I think those three things combined would make, not the perfect life, but it would sure make life easier for everybody else. If I don’t have to go to work and worry about one person trying to take it easy and not doing their job. Or I hear stories about people who are part of the union who are messing up, five, six times, yet they feel that they are owed a certain something just because they paid they’re dues.

Is there a level playing field?

No. No there isn’t one. There isn’t one because greed and laziness will bring two things. Greed will bring people who try to do whatever it takes to keep whatever it is that they have. And some will do the unthinkable just to keep it. And then you have people who are trying to cheat the government, people on welfare, people who will take advantage of being part of the union who will do less than they can because they feel that they are protected under the union. So that’s not fair because then what they do affects the middle class.

With the rich and the greed, what they do I feel affects the middle class in. And the middle class that I feel are the ones, not necessarily everybody in the middle class are honest, I’m just saying it seems like what the lower income people are doing whatever they’re trying to do just to get past, just to get enough, just to have a better life 

In the year since this interview was done this young woman's life went through a number of dramatic changes.  The company she was working for was on the verge of shutting down; plans were in place for liquidation of the office equipment when the company got a new life.  Personally, she had a brush with death, her relationship of more than eleven years ended and one of the rottweilers that was so dear to her died.  She is living with friends now, putting the pieces of her life back together and still working for the same company.  For a period of time her outlook on life was dark and grim, marked by periods of deep depression.  Recently she's found a determination to forge a new life and she is progressing towards a renewed happiness and contentment.  In her interview she often mentions the greed of the rich and big business. I'm finally publishing this at a time when many are fed up with that type of greed as, a little over a year after the interview, there are nationwide demonstrations protesting just that greed.